New York University's independent student newspaper, established in 1973.

Washington Square News
Thousands walk Fifth Avenue for ‘No Kings’ protest
Thousands walk Fifth Avenue for ‘No Kings’ protest
"Maybe Happy Ending," written by Steinhardt alum Hue Park and Tisch alum Will Aronson, was the most awarded production at the awards ceremony. (Courtesy of Matthew Murphy)
18 alumni take home Tony Awards
A Film and Television student receiving their symbolic diploma silently protests by raising their hands to reveal “NO JUSTICE” and “NO PEACE." (Julia Smerling for WSN)
Protests persist across Tisch, law school graduations
2025 Gallatin graduation ceremony student speaker Logan Rozos. (Julia Smerling for WSN)
NYU withholds diploma of Gallatin graduate who condemned ‘genocide currently occurring’ in Gaza
Graduates waved keffiyehs and walked out during President Linda Mills' commencement address on Thursday, May 15. (Julia Smerling for WSN)
Mills booed again as graduates walk out at 2025 commencement
N.Y.U. Grossman School of Medicine building. It is a red brick building. People are walking outside the building and a large sign with “NYU Grossman School of Medicine'' is in the front.
NYU Grossman rescinds program acceptances after losing federal grant
At least 2 NYU affiliates involved in organizations that promote anti-trans practices
At least 2 NYU affiliates involved in organizations that promote anti-trans practices
A cardboard sign taped to a metal barricade with the words “WE DO NOT ENGAGE WITH ZIONISTS! WE KEEP EACH OTHER SAFE!”
‘A chilling effect’: Conduct guidelines cast shadow of concern over faculty
A person wearing a keffiyeh is zip tied by a cop in protective gear.
Inside NYU’s 180-plus disciplinary cases against pro-Palestinian students and faculty
Students walking on NYU’s Abu Dhabi campus. (Sam Klein for WSN)
‘Extremely disturbing’: Concerns over academic freedom at NYU Abu Dhabi surface following policies restricting attire at graduation
Thousands walk Fifth Avenue for ‘No Kings’ protest
Thousands walk Fifth Avenue for ‘No Kings’ protest
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Mayoral candidates talk housing affordability at Kimmel forum
(Jason Alpert-Wisnia for WSN)
Early education program at NYU canceled after federal funding cuts
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Students and faculty join citywide May Day rallies
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Artists join decadelong fight for Elizabeth Street Garden
"Maybe Happy Ending," written by Steinhardt alum Hue Park and Tisch alum Will Aronson, was the most awarded production at the awards ceremony. (Courtesy of Matthew Murphy)
18 alumni take home Tony Awards
2025 Gallatin graduation ceremony student speaker Logan Rozos. (Julia Smerling for WSN)
NYU withholds diploma of Gallatin graduate who condemned ‘genocide currently occurring’ in Gaza
Graduates waved keffiyehs and walked out during President Linda Mills' commencement address on Thursday, May 15. (Julia Smerling for WSN)
Mills booed again as graduates walk out at 2025 commencement
SNL star and Tisch alum Molly Shannon addressed the class of 2025 in Yankee Stadium on Thursday, May 15. (Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Molly Shannon gives stand-up-style speech at commencement
2025 commencement: All-university exercises begin at Yankee Stadium
2025 commencement: All-university exercises begin at Yankee Stadium
A Film and Television student receiving their symbolic diploma silently protests by raising their hands to reveal “NO JUSTICE” and “NO PEACE." (Julia Smerling for WSN)
Protests persist across Tisch, law school graduations
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Students picket outside Vanderbilt Hall, demand NYU Law cut anti-protest contract
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Professors call for sanctuary campus with off-site classes
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Students hold cross-campus march for divestment, noncitizen support
(Kevin Wu for WSN)
NYU Langone treats Israeli soldiers with advanced prosthetics
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
NYU has a ‘moral obligation’ to protect noncitizen students, immigration experts say
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Professors call for sanctuary campus with off-site classes
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Students hold cross-campus march for divestment, noncitizen support
A vehicle, parked on LaGuardia Place outside Bobst Library, displaying authorization from federal law enforcement. (Alex Woodworth for WSN)
You may have seen federal law enforcement roaming around campus. It’s Secret Service for Barron.
(Kevin Wu for WSN)
Over 100 NYU Law faculty condemn Trump attack on higher ed
(Courtesy of Padmini Murthy)
Beyond NYU: Advancing women’s health through global activism
(Courtesy of Beau Flynn)
Beyond NYU: From studying at Stern to producing ‘Moana’
(Courtesy of Augusta Lecaros)
Beyond NYU: Creating and curating feminist art around the world
(Courtesy of Marin Driguez)
Beyond NYU: From aspiring scientist to award-winning reporter
(Courtesy of Elliot Greenfield)
Beyond NYU: Shaping the image of a top luxury brand
Editorial: Who to vote for in the NYC primaries
Editorial: Who to vote for in the NYC primaries
Around 20 students picketed outside Vanderbilt Hall on Monday, May 5. (Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Guest Essay: What would you have us do instead?
Students at the 2024 Steinhardt graduation ceremony decorated their caps with pro-Palestinian designs. (Jason Alpert-Wisnia for WSN)
Guest Essay: Why you should decorate your graduation cap
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Letter from the Editor: My goodbye to WSN
(Jason Alpert-Wisnia for WSN)
Off Topic: Foreign films aren’t foes
Editorial: Who to vote for in the NYC primaries
Editorial: Who to vote for in the NYC primaries
(Manasa Gudavalli for WSN)
Editorial: Linda Mills, where are you?
(Kiara Mujica for WSN)
Editorial: Why NYU should, but probably won’t, follow Harvard
The personal information included in the leaked files on NYU's homepage on the morning of March 22, 2025. (Kyra Reilley for WSN)
Editorial: NYU is failing to protect the safety of its applicants
(Manasa Gudavalli for WSN)
Editorial: NYU must protect its international community’s right to free speech
Around 20 students picketed outside Vanderbilt Hall on Monday, May 5. (Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Guest Essay: What would you have us do instead?
Students at the 2024 Steinhardt graduation ceremony decorated their caps with pro-Palestinian designs. (Jason Alpert-Wisnia for WSN)
Guest Essay: Why you should decorate your graduation cap
(Manasa Gudavalli for WSN)
Editorial: Linda Mills, where are you?
(Kiara Mujica for WSN)
Guest Essay: The future of NYC can’t be left to Cuomo or Adams
(Krish Dev for WSN)
Guest Essay: We, a small group of LS faculty, call on Mills to resign
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Letter from the Editor: My goodbye to WSN
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Letter from the Editor: In the age of Trump, student journalism is more vital than ever.
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Letter from the Editor: A reflection on WSN’s mission
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Letter from the Editor: Welcome to the Washington Square News
Letter from the editor: On reflection
Letter from the editor: On reflection
An illustration of a white postcard with a red stamp in the top right corner. On the postcard are the words “letter to the editor” in a cursive style. Behind the postcard is a closed gray envelope.
Letter to the Editor: 94 LS faculty members approve statement to WSN
An illustration of a white postcard with a red stamp in the top right corner. On the postcard are the words “letter to the editor” in a cursive style. Behind the postcard is a closed gray envelope.
Letter to the Editor: Silver School dean on the case for a tuition-free social work education
An illustration of a white postcard with a red stamp in the top right corner. On the postcard are the words “letter to the editor” in a cursive style. Behind the postcard is a closed gray envelope.
Letter to the Editor: Wasserman Center director on the Handshake job search platform
An illustration of a white postcard with a red stamp in the top right corner. On the postcard are the words “letter to the editor” in a cursive style. Behind the postcard is a closed gray envelope.
Letter to the Editor: CWS director on suicide response and mental health resources
An illustration of a white postcard with a red stamp in the top right corner. On the postcard are the words “letter to the editor” in a cursive style. Behind the postcard is a closed gray envelope.
Letter to the Editor: NYU remains committed to NYU Tel Aviv
(Manasa Gudavalli for WSN)
Off-Third: Mills to star in Broadway bio-musical, tickets start at $1099
A four panel illustration of four different people drawn in a monochrome purple pallet.
Off-Third: NYU released their shortlist for consultants on ‘institutional restraint.’ You won’t believe who’s on it.
An illustration of a poster on a utility pole with a woman in the center with a question mark over her face. Above are the words “LINDA MILLS” and below are the words “Lookalike Contest.”
Off-Third: Linda Mills lookalike contest brings new crowd to Gould Plaza
A portrait of Eric Adams wearing a gray suit, white collared shirt and navy blue printed tie. He stands in front of a royal blue background and an American flag on a floor stand.
Off-Third: Eric Adams and Rudy Giuliani compete to be NYC’s most disgraced mayor
An illustration of a person with binoculars staring in awe at a woman wearing dark sunglasses and red lipstick.
Off-Third: How to stalk campus celebrities
(Jason Alpert-Wisnia for WSN)
Off Topic: Foreign films aren’t foes
Pinnacles National Park. (Krish Dev for WSN)
Off Topic: Public lands deserve priority
(Courtesy of Gage Skidmore)
Off Topic: Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s autism solution is worse than the problem
The Metropolitan Museum of Art. (Matt Petres for WSN)
Off Topic: Trump’s war on the arts
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Off Topic: Today’s feminism prioritizes performance over action
An illustration of a woman screaming and text that reads “STAFF RANTS.”
Staff Rants: Post-election feelings
An illustration of a black megaphone that reads ‘STAFF RANTS’ in white letters. There are black and white lines coming out of the megaphone. The background is red.
Staff Rants: Springing in and out of spring
An illustration of a black megaphone that reads ‘STAFF RANTS’ in white letters. There are black and white lines coming out of the megaphone. The background is red.
Staff Rants: New beginnings or old complaints?
An illustration of a megaphone with the phrase “Staff Rants” written on it. The megaphone wears a red Santa hat and the background is white with blue snowflakes.
Staff Rants: Holiday Overload
An illustration of a purple and orange megaphone that reads ‘STAFF RANTS’ in green letters. There are purple and green lines coming out of the megaphone. The background is black.
Staff Rants: Spooky season
(Kyra Reilley for WSN)
A letter from WSN’s sports editor
(Courtesy of NYU Athletics)
NYU women’s golf team looks for support and success as the season nears its end
(Courtesy of NYU Water Polo)
A dive into NYU’s water polo teams
(Kyra Reilley for WSN)
Baseball finishes season, track runners sets personal records and other news
(Courtesy of NYU Lacrosse)
Women’s lacrosse off to nationals for the first time in NYU history
(Kyra Reilley for WSN)
Baseball finishes season, track runners sets personal records and other news
(Kyra Reilley for WSN)
Golf, tennis and track & field teams compete in conference tournaments, baseball plays away games and other news
(Kyra Reilley for WSN)
Women’s golf wins tournament, tennis ends regular season with wins and other news
(Kyra Reilley for WSN)
Track & field program record, men’s volleyball remains undefeated and other news
(Kyra Reilley for WSN)
Men’s volleyball ends regular season undefeated, baseball opens conference play and other news
(Sidney Snider for WSN)
In the Huddle: Volleyball player Emerson Evans on NYU’s historic season
(Sidney Snider for WSN)
In the Huddle: Aurora Aschettino on her fencing career
(Sidney Snider for WSN)
In the Huddle: A conversation with two-time national swimmer of the year Kaley McIntyre
(Sidney Snider for WSN)
In the Huddle: MK Fahey on the women’s basketball team’s monumental season
(Sidney Snider for WSN)
In the Huddle: A sit-down with baseball player Aidan Pawlak
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Out of Bounds: Major sports news out of Australia, the UK and Los Angeles
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Out of Bounds: Major sports news out of Germany, Spain and London
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Out of Bounds: Major sports news out of the UK, France and Spain
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Out of Bounds: Major sports news out of London, Los Angeles and Washington, D.C.
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Out of Bounds: Major sports news out of Australia, Spain and the UK
(Sara Sharma for WSN)
What’s the move, class of 2025?
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Ranked: Celsius flavors
(Kiara Mujica for WSN)
Your May horoscope: Summer sentiments
(Kiran Komanduri for WSN)
5 beauty product recommendations from AAPI-owned brands
(Kaleo Zhu for WSN)
6 restaurants near campus for your post-graduation celebration
(Kiran Komanduri for WSN)
5 beauty product recommendations from AAPI-owned brands
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
6 runway-inspired pieces to wear this summer
(Veronica Liow for WSN)
Gov Ball style guide
(Kyra Reilley for WSN)
I asked ChatGPT to make my outfit — here’s what happened
Nancy Deihl and Rachel Lifter. (Henry Bayha for WSN)
Inside Steinhardt’s new Fashion Studies minor
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Ranked: Celsius flavors
(Kaleo Zhu for WSN)
6 restaurants near campus for your post-graduation celebration
Fish bian dang. (Lauren Ng for WSN)
New eats near NYU: A restaurant-turned-bakery serving bold Taiwanese flavors
Swoonworthy dorm dinners
Swoonworthy dorm dinners
(Kiran Komanduri for WSN)
New eats near NYU: The viral 2D omakase restaurant tastes as good as it looks
Making an Exoneree students from NYU, Georgetown University and Princeton University at a conference in Princeton (Courtesy of Sullivan Gaudreault)
These NYU students are getting the wrongly incarcerated out of prison
(Allina Xiao for WSN)
Who gets to be represented during AAPI Month?
(Courtesy of the ROSES study)
Students confront youth incarceration through community-focused advocacy
(Kyra Reilley for WSN)
20 years in, this CAS department combines analysis and activism
The Steinhardt Undergraduate Student Government food pantry in Pless Hall. (Julia Smerling for WSN)
The fight for food security at NYU
(Ruhi Joshi for WSN)
Ranked: Manhattan’s AMC theaters
(Allina Xiao for WSN)
Ranked: NYU core requirements
(Kyra Reilley for WSN)
Ranked: Yankee Stadium grub
(Iris Bell for WSN)
Ranked: NYU merch
(Henry Bayha and Allina Xiao for WSN)
Ranked: Subway stations near NYU
(Julia Smerling for WSN)
Norma Kamali invents and reinvents herself at NYFW
Frederick Anderson brings gothic glamour to Paradise Club
Frederick Anderson brings gothic glamour to Paradise Club
(Levi Langley for WSN)
Global Fashion Collective highlights 3 East Asian designers at NYFW
(Sidney Snider for WSN)
Global Fashion Collective flaunts the abundance of spring at NYFW
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
Global Fashion Collective toys with heritage, nostalgia and the cosmos
2025 Governor’s Ball features Tyler The Creator, Olivia Rodrigo and Hozier
2025 Governor’s Ball features Tyler The Creator, Olivia Rodrigo and Hozier
"Maybe Happy Ending," written by Steinhardt alum Hue Park and Tisch alum Will Aronson, was the most awarded production at the awards ceremony. (Courtesy of Matthew Murphy)
18 alumni take home Tony Awards
(Dani Biondi for WSN)
Off the Radar: ‘City Lights’ challenges both sight and sound
(Ethan Li for WSN)
The Met’s newest exhibition puts visitors in the place of a Parisian art critique
(Courtesy of Alex Foster)
NYU Creative Writing alum on his debut sci-fi novel
(Courtesy of Alex Foster)
NYU Creative Writing alum on his debut sci-fi novel
(Allina Xiao for WSN)
Books beyond Bobst: A book by a great American novelist, an art-centered romance and more
(Emma Foley for WSN)
Review: Emily Henry’s new book expands beyond romance
(Courtesy of Amanda Eisenberg)
NYU professor and journalist speaks about her new feminist novel
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Books beyond Bobst: A conversation between Kublai Khan and Marco Polo, a Russian classic and more
(Dani Biondi for WSN)
Off the Radar: ‘City Lights’ challenges both sight and sound
(Kyra Reilley for WSN)
6 pieces of Indian media to consume this AAPI Month
(Courtesy of Jonathan Wenk)
Q&A: Tisch alum on being the next ‘Karate Kid’
(Iris Bell for WSN)
Off the Radar: ‘Jealousy’ tackles the artist’s dilemma
(Courtesy of Universal Pictures)
The Oscars will soon award stunts. Here’s what they missed out on.
2025 Governor’s Ball features Tyler The Creator, Olivia Rodrigo and Hozier
2025 Governor’s Ball features Tyler The Creator, Olivia Rodrigo and Hozier
(Courtesy of ​​Maddie McGuffey)
Q&A: A young songwriter on creating emotion through music
Tisch alum Maggie Rogers performing at Madison Square Garden on Oct. 19, 2024. (Anna Baird-Hassell for WSN)
Maggie Rogers to speak at Tisch graduation
(Julia Smerling for WSN)
Q&A: Milehin on art and student artistry
Man on the Street: “What’s your relationship status?”
"Maybe Happy Ending," written by Steinhardt alum Hue Park and Tisch alum Will Aronson, was the most awarded production at the awards ceremony. (Courtesy of Matthew Murphy)
18 alumni take home Tony Awards
Denzel Washington and Jake Gyllenhaal, starring as Othello and Iago. (Courtesy photo by Julieta Cervantes)
Review: ‘Othello’s’ star-studded cast outshines its meaning
(Courtesy of Matthew Murphy and Evan Zimmerman)
Review: ‘Stranger Things: The First Shadow’ exists as just a live television episode
(Courtesy of Evan Zimmerman)
Review: ‘All Nighter’ takes on the college student’s psyche
(Courtesy of Damon Baker)
Review: ‘John Proctor is the Villain’ wages war on the male abuser
(Ethan Li for WSN)
The Met’s newest exhibition puts visitors in the place of a Parisian art critique
The Garden Court (Courtesy of The Frick Collection)
The Frick Collection’s Gilded Age time capsule has finally reopened
(Henry Bayha for WSN)
Review: ‘American Sublime’ at the Whitney responds to the Trump era
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
‘Anonymous Was A Woman’ celebrates women artists’ individuality
(Julia Smerling for WSN)
New Met exhibition shatters beauty with a feminist hammer
The Romance Issue | Under the Arch Magazine
The Romance Issue | Under the Arch Magazine
The Housing Guide | Under the Arch Magazine
The Housing Guide | Under the Arch Magazine
The Music Issue | Under the Arch Magazine
The Music Issue | Under the Arch Magazine
The Sports Issue | Under the Arch Magazine
The Sports Issue | Under the Arch Magazine
An illustration of Vice President Kamala Harris and former president Donald Trump, over a blue and red background.
The Election Issue | Under the Arch Magazine
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
NYU Strawberry Festival 2025
On the Street: Reflections
On the Street: Reflections
Two strangers share a beautiful moment in Washington Square Park on a hot fall afternoon. (Henry Bayha for WSN)
Love in the city
(Maya Joy Randolph for WSN)
The fight to save Elizabeth Street Garden
(Kiran Komanduri for WSN)
NYU Law students take on a different kind of court — the basketball court
(Allina Xiao for WSN)
Cartoon: The commuter life
NYU Dining Halls: Farm-to-Table Eats!
NYU Dining Halls: Farm-to-Table Eats!
Cartoon: An ode to Albert
Cartoon: An ode to Albert
In the panel titled Tisch, a girl with long braided hair, alternative clothing and round glasses types on a computer with sheets of paper flying around her. Her eyes are swirls and her expression is panicked as she says, “Sorry, I can't go out tonight, I have a 73-page play due tomorrow!” In the panel titled Stern, a man with short dark hair and rectangular glasses wears a suit saying, “Sorry, I can't go out tonight, I have 500+ LinkedIn connections due tomorrow…” He holds a phone with a symbol of people and the number 500 while people shake hands in the background. In the panel titled Gallatin, a boy with wavy brown hair and goggles holds ropes while saying, “Sorry, I can't go out tonight, I have to weave a basket underwater tomorrow.” Another dialogue line reads “Yeah, that’s my concentration…” next to drawings of fish and baskets. In the panel titled Steinhardt, a girl with curly blonde hair and freckles stares at a phone while various electronic devices are scattered in the background including a phone with a caller ID saying “Kiara & Allina.” In a dialogue bubble she says, “Sorry, I can't go out tonight, I have to communicate tomorrow.” In the panel titled Tandon a boy with round glasses, a puffer vest, a quarter-zip sweater and dyed purple hair says, “Sorry, I can't go out tonight, I have a robot due tomorrow!” Behind him is a robot holding a sandwich on a plate saying “YUMMY,” a laptop on a desk displaying “Chat G.P.T.” and a blackboard with various diagrams in white chalk. In the panel titled C.A.S. is a girl wearing a white lab coat and goggles over a pink shirt and saying, “Sorry, I can't go out tonight, I have to write an essay on bird migration in Ancient Greece due tomorrow!” She holds an open book while plucking a leaf off of an overhead branch with forceps, facing away from a desk where a beaker of green liquid overflows.
Cartoon: NYU during finals is just so … unique
In a grayscale comic, a person works at a desk in front of a computer next to a window showing a city in ruins with a fallen sign saying “TECH INDUSTRY.” In the bottom right corner is a thought bubble that says, “Why can’t I find an internship?”
Cartoon: Your major in computer science has been declared
On the Street: Reflections
On the Street: Reflections
On the Street: Floral
On the Street: Floral
On the Street: Escapism
On the Street: Escapism
Ivy Chan, Kiara Mujica, Ethan Li, and Krish Dev.
On the Street: Food
(Krish Dev, Kyra Reilley, Suditi Sircar, and Isaac Wheatley)
On the Street: Framing
Two strangers share a beautiful moment in Washington Square Park on a hot fall afternoon. (Henry Bayha for WSN)
Love in the city
(Kiran Komanduri for WSN)
NYU Law students take on a different kind of court — the basketball court
Hundreds of students and faculty surrounded Gould Plaza on April 22, 2024 in protest of NYU's ties to Israel amid its ongoing war in Gaza. (Krish Dev for WSN)
Remembering Gould Plaza, 1 year later
(Alisia Houghtaling for WSN)
Spring break adventures
(Kiran Komanduri for WSN)
A season-long look into the record-breaking NYU women’s basketball team
(Alex Woodworth for WSN)
NYU Strawberry Festival 2025
(Maya Joy Randolph for WSN)
The fight to save Elizabeth Street Garden
(Henry Bayha for WSN)
NYU Gallatin fashion show highlights student creativity
SLAM! at NYU celebrates the art of spoken word
SLAM! at NYU celebrates the art of spoken word
Mou Theatre brings together Mandarin-speaking theater enthusiasts at NYU
Mou Theatre brings together Mandarin-speaking theater enthusiasts at NYU
SPONSORED: Protecting your business from cybersecurity attacks: Essential security measures
SPONSORED: How to find your best college fit
SPONSORED: Navigating mental health as a student: How Mid City TMS can support you
SPONSORED: How do I sublet my apartment this summer?
New York University's independent student newspaper, established in 1973.

Washington Square News
New York University's independent student newspaper, established in 1973.

Washington Square News
A close-up shot of bright orange lava.

Q&A with ‘Rock Bottom Riser’ director Fern Silva

WSN spoke with Fern Silva about Hawaii, Dwayne Johnson, colonialism and cinema as a point of inquiry.
Nicolas Pedrero-Setzer, Arts Editor • March 7, 2022

At first glance, Fern Silva’s “Rock Bottom Riser” is a documentary about Hawaii. But through Silva’s tapestry of visceral sights and sounds, it becomes a sui generis piece...

A silhouette of swaying palm trees in front of a burnt orange sunset. In the center of the background is a giant golden sun surrounded by an orange cloudy sky.

Review: ‘Rock Bottom Riser’ rocks

Fern Silva’s feature-length debut is an electrifying documentary on Hawaii. “Rock Bottom Riser” opens this weekend at the Metrograph.
Nicolas Pedrero-Setzer, Arts Editor • March 4, 2022

Through his exploration of myth, Fern Silva brings out the realness of places. His feature film debut, “Rock Bottom Riser,” digs deep into the long and complicated history...